Drowned migrants

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  • Anonymous
    24th November 2021 at 11:58 pm #563682

    Deep sadness for these people who have drowned in a large number in the last 24 hours or so and in smaller numbers in recent times. An awful death after mostly difficult journeys. No doubt most have/had no rights to be in the UK or they would have tried a legal route to get in, but it says they think a better life awaits in UK.

    I have inspected services for Unaccompanied Asylum Seeking Children (many used to be smuggled in by lorry but that has virtually been stopped, hence the danger of boat journey) and know that when such people arrive a lot was done to help them and, at best, to make a positive contribution to a new country, which many have done.

    But the numbers are not sustainable given the resources currently and ever likely to be avaialble to mop people up, assess and where appropriate, equip for a new start or return them to where!?!?. It is going to cause a lot of unrest.

    Nor can I see how the areas near the ports in Northern France can continue to bear the influx, whether people get across Channel or not. I would hate to live and work near Calais/ Boulogne/Dunkerque.

    Angel Merkel bears a lot of responsibility for the current situation, as the Russian Ambassador to the EU pointed out last week in connection to Belarus the West said they are welcome and the appalling Lukoshenko said of the migrants on the Polish border I have not invited them, they want to come to your country not mine.

    The British and French govts are not getting on too well but unless the rest of the EU does what they should be doing: stopping at arrival; assessing status; making asylum decisions; 3rd countries taking legitimate refugees in proportion; finding a way to return unacceptable people; and more support to the countries most near the eastern and southern border…… many more women and children and ambitious young men will die at sea next year.

    (PS I believe in my commune, 50230, a terrific job has been done to absorb a dozen or so young refugees about 3 years ago when camps were cleared at Calais and now doing stuff in football teams, drama etc but I don`t think some other communes were so inclined).

    25th November 2021 at 12:46 am #563683

    Not being a supporter of Merkel, I seriously doubt, Stepaul, that you can judge her. Relying on RT is not what I consider a reylable source.  Do you speak her language? Do you know what exactly she ordered? Do you have any idea where we would have gone without her decision? Don’t you think that your Britain-First-Philosophy is likely to increase the number of refugees at the European borders simply by depriving them of the chance to make a decent living in their  home countries? And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye? [Lk 6:41; KJV]

    Anonymous
    25th November 2021 at 9:23 am #563689

    Your comment is littered with bigoted inaccuracies.

    Stepaul Said
    24TH NOVEMBER 2021 AT 11:58 PM #563682
    No doubt most have/had no rights to be in the UK or they would have tried a legal route to get in, but it says they think a better life awaits in UK.

    Everyone has a right to seek asylum in whatever country of their choice, and that country has a duty to assess their application. That is written into international law. What is also determined is that the method of travel and arrival is irrelevant to the success of each application.

    Moreover, UK closed most of the legal routes with Brexit. The Dublin Agreement allowed for families to be reunited, that is now closed. There were other mechanisms that allowed for legal entry into UK which have now been closed by UK.

    Stepaul Said
    24TH NOVEMBER 2021 AT 11:58 PM #563682

    But the numbers are not sustainable given the resources currently and ever likely to be avaialble to mop people up, assess and where appropriate, equip for a new start or return them to where!?!?. It is going to cause a lot of unrest.

    The UK allocates the resources, and it refuses to allocate sufficient resources,  creating the frequent call of not enough houses, jobs, schools, hospitals etc. We have seen during the pandemic that the provision of such medical facilities is barely sufficient for normal operations.

    Additionally, the UK government seeks to blame immigrants for all the ills of society because it reduces resources to address those societal issues, and it merely diverts attention and blame to A N Other.

     

    Stepaul Said
    24TH NOVEMBER 2021 AT 11:58 PM #563682

    Nor can I see how the areas near the ports in Northern France can continue to bear the influx, whether people get across Channel or not.

    No-one suggests that the French government are immune to such propaganda and skulduggery neither.

    Stepaul Said
    24TH NOVEMBER 2021 AT 11:58 PM #563682

    Angel Merkel bears a lot of responsibility for the current situation,

    And a lot of praise for her compassion and vision, and her ability to absorb, perhaps, the most immigrants to Europe than any other nation.

     

    Stepaul Said
    24TH NOVEMBER 2021 AT 11:58 PM #563682

    Lukoshenko said of the migrants on the Polish border I have not invited them,

     

    Which is blatantly untrue. He laid on planes and issued visas for potential migrants.

     

    Stepaul Said
    24TH NOVEMBER 2021 AT 11:58 PM #563682

    The British and French govts are not getting on too well but unless the rest of the EU does what they should be doing: stopping at arrival; assessing status; making asylum decisions;

    Erm, erm, one minute you’re talking about the Polish border, and migrants being stopped, then you’re claiming that migrants are not being stopped. I think your eyes have misted over with your bigotry.

     

    Stepaul Said
    24TH NOVEMBER 2021 AT 11:58 PM #563682

    3rd countries taking legitimate refugees in proportion;

    Exactly, UK takes in the lowest proportion of refugees than any other European country, by a country mile, in relation to the existing population, GDP, average income, or just about any other measure, etc.

     

    Stepaul Said
    24TH NOVEMBER 2021 AT 11:58 PM #563682

    finding a way to return unacceptable people;

    As previously said, UK has closed existing opportunities, and in addition, the process is riduculously slow compared to other countries.

    Moreover, when asylum seekers application fails, and their appeals procedures is exhausted, which can take up to ten years, the UK removes all support, and allows the failed asylum seeker to wander around, homeless and penniless, and does not remove them. Bearing in mind that UK cannot simply remove a failed asylum seeker to somewhere else, it needs the cooperation, agreement and permission of the destination country. While UK creates international distrust, such cooperation, and agreements will be reduced.

     

    Stepaul Said
    24TH NOVEMBER 2021 AT 11:58 PM #563682

    and more support to the countries most near the eastern and southern border……

    Like Frontex, the EU border force? No doubt you were one of those that claimed that this was going to be ‘The EU Army’.

     

    Stepaul Said
    24TH NOVEMBER 2021 AT 11:58 PM #563682

    many more women and children and ambitious young men will die at sea next year.

    There’s an easy way to reduce that possibility even to zero: for UK to re-open pre-existing safe, legal routes, and to create new legal safe routes for asylum seekers.

    25th November 2021 at 9:37 am #563690

    An excellent demolition job Bobby, if I may say so.

    25th November 2021 at 9:40 am #563691

    I agree that the UK should reopen safe routes for migrants , but politically this is not going to happen .

    What I find difficult to accept , is that the French police/Government can’t stop the overfull rubber boats from leaving the coast.

    Surely only using the EU/French safety and licence laws would disallow this form of transport?

    I believe that it is a political use of immigrants . :unsure:

     

     

    25th November 2021 at 10:07 am #563698

    Excellent response, Bobby. :good:

    So much ‘very sad, but…’ inhumanity going on about this tragedy…

    25th November 2021 at 10:39 am #563701

    I’m thinking there needs to be some distinction between genuine asylum seekers and economic migrants.  And then answer another question.  Why don’t these people that pay thousands to the trafficers simply buy an air or train ticket and travel legally like the rest of us would?  Is it because doing that they would have to show passports or I.D. documentation at some point?  :unsure:

    Humanitarian issues don’t seem to be talked about when the west goes to war, or sells armaments to promote “regime change” by remote control.  You reap what you sow comes to mind.

    Anonymous
    25th November 2021 at 10:41 am #563702

    Deboer(87) said
    25TH NOVEMBER 2021 AT 9:40 AM #563691
    What I find difficult to accept , is that the French police/Government can’t stop the overfull rubber boats from leaving the coast.

    Surely only using the EU/French safety and licence laws would disallow this form of transport?

    I believe that it is a political use of immigrants .

    I agree, but there is only so much that can be done other than lining the whole of the northern French coast with police or military, which will only serve to push the refugees to seek other departure points, or other illegal routes and potentially create yet another opportunity for criminal gangs to exploit.

     

    As for the pictures of one or two police not confronting a crowd of about 20 or thirty refugees, who are desperate enough about to attempt a risky and very dangerous sea crossing in a small boat, we need to keep our opinions in perspective.

    We know that the French police do prevent the majority of attempted crossings.

     

     

    25th November 2021 at 10:42 am #563703

    I suspect most of us in our privallaged positions of safety and security etc would do exactly what those poor people were trying to do if the roles were reversed.

    Anonymous
    25th November 2021 at 10:44 am #563704

    Shapeshifter said
    25TH NOVEMBER 2021 AT 10:39 AM #563701
    I’m thinking there needs to be some distinction between genuine asylum seekers and economic migrants.

    But the asylum seekers have a right to have their application properly assessed by competent officials, not by inexperienced, bigoted social media warriors.

    25th November 2021 at 11:03 am #563707

    And members here have a right to hold and express an opinion without being assessed and labelled.

    25th November 2021 at 11:29 am #563708

    Shapeshifter – in answer to your question courtesy of the British Red Cross:

    ‘4. Refugees often have to take very dangerous journeys.

    Approximately 3,000 people died while trying to reach another country in 2020. Many of these people were looking for safety and fleeing from war, violence and persecution.

    The way the system is set up means most people can only claim asylum in another country once they get there. But the journey itself can be extremely dangerous.

    For most people who are facing persecution it’s not as simple as buying a ticket and getting on a plane, or driving into another country. People can be forced into hiding, foreign embassies can close and airports or train stations may be inaccessible. Instead, they have to get out any way that they can.

    The UN Refugee Convention makes it clear that there will often be justified reasons why refugees are unable to enter a country with a valid visa. There is no visa you can apply for to claim asylum in the UK.

    The small number of people attempting to reach the UK do so for a variety of reasons. Some may have family here, or speak English’

    More refugee myths are busted in the rest of the article here:

    https://www.redcross.org.uk/stories/migration-and-displacement/refugees-and-asylum-seekers/six-things-you-need-to-know-about-refugees-and-asylum-seekers

    Anonymous
    25th November 2021 at 11:55 am #563710

    Shapeshifter you mentioned economic migrants, well isn’t that why many Brits move to France, Believe it is from what I read when people say “I could not have afforded a place like I have here, in England” and the many that quote lunching out for €10-12 and that’s without mentioning those that love to inform you just how much they save buying wine here. So yes, many Brits come to France as economic migrants.

    Anonymous
    25th November 2021 at 12:40 pm #563713

    John P said
    25TH NOVEMBER 2021 AT 11:03 AM #563707
    And members here have a right to hold and express an opinion without being assessed and labelled.

    Erm, for sure every one has a right to hold an opinion. That includes my right to dismantle bigoted and incorrect assumptions, and to present evidence that demonstrates that their opinion was incorrect and based on bigotry.

    I also have a right to hold an opinion about the authors of those incorrect and bigoted assertions.

    Similarly you have a right to express an opinion about me. We all have rights, and with rights come responsibilities not to exploit a distressing scenario to promote our own political ideology.

    25th November 2021 at 12:49 pm #563715

    I think if you add everything up, living in France isn’t cheaper overall, some things are less and some things are more expensive. Yes property can be cheaper depending on where you buy but the cost of renovation which is what many of us did,  is much higher. Add to that the fact that we arrived with documents proving who we are and where we come from, a pension or means of income and I don’t see the comparison except that we are migrants in another country and are legally permitted to be here.

    25th November 2021 at 1:00 pm #563716

    Bobby I find your arrogance beyond belief. To think you have the right to dismantle anyone’s opinion that doesn’t  agree with yours and label them is just despicable.

    Instead of attacking other peoples opinions why not suggest some resolutions to the problems. People might even want to enter into a discussion with you if you had something to offer other than attack.

    Anonymous
    25th November 2021 at 1:08 pm #563718

    John P said
    25TH NOVEMBER 2021 AT 1:00 PM #563716
    Bobby I find your arrogance beyond belief. To think you have the right to dismantle anyone’s opinion that doesn’t  agree with yours and label them is just despicable.

    Instead of attacking other peoples opinions why not suggest some resolutions to the problems. People might even want to enter into a discussion with you if you had something to offer other than attack.

    John you appear to be forgetting your own comments, made just a couple of hours ago:

    John P said
    25TH NOVEMBER 2021 AT 11:03 AM #563707
    And members here have a right to hold and express an opinion without being assessed and labelled.

    BTW, I’m dismantling their bigoted and inaccurate assertions posted on social media. They can keep their opinions, I have no jurisdiction over those.

     

    And I hope you will notice that I did offer some resolutions to the problem: “re-opening pre-existing safe routes” and “creating new ones” ring any bells?

    Anonymous
    25th November 2021 at 1:40 pm #563720

    John P, sorry but the initial move to France is to sell in the UK and buy cheaper in France, that to my experience is true but maybe the likes of Stanley Johnson and  few others will buy bigger places and the fairly  new craze for buying chateaux due I  suspect to Mrs & Mrs Sawgrass.

    If people come here to restore and or renovate old properties, it is in the initial belief of just how much they will save by doing most of the work themselves, few would buy if they knew in the first place the actual cost of materials and labour if required. France is scattered with places Brits have bought and ended up running out of money. How many times do we read that to think of the costs then treble it or more.

    Taxe Hab and Foncieres are in general cheaper than UK rates, especially on a like for like basis. Wine is well known to be cheaper before people even arrive to live here. Good food can be bought in the right places to compare with the likes of Waitrose etc.
    Sorry but for sure people arrive from the UK to save money off their sale by buying cheap properties here, what comes later and if dearer than the UK for many is not known and to my mind many will be economic migrants. Lets be honest you can count on one hand the number who move here in the belief they will be buying a more expensive property than they left. Those that arrive here to work, those like us who came for commerce, we personally see ourselves as economic migrants, what else would we be? We’ve come to earn money, we’ve come to run businesses, whether it be building, running bars, restaurants, or in our case initially a camp site which we could never have afforded in the UK, same for our next venture.

    25th November 2021 at 1:52 pm #563722

    Bobby, “And I hope you will notice that I did offer some resolutions to the problem: “re-opening pre-existing safe routes” and “creating new ones” ring any bells?

    REPLY

    They do exist. It’s called ‘Applying for a visa’. If you can afford £3-5k for a people smuggler you can afford the fees to apply for LEGAL immigration, once you’ve landed in a safe country like France!

    Anonymous
    25th November 2021 at 2:07 pm #563725

    AndrewJ (17)
    25TH NOVEMBER 2021 AT 1:52 PM #563722
    Bobby, “And I hope you will notice that I did offer some resolutions to the problem: “re-opening pre-existing safe routes” and “creating new ones” ring any bells?

    REPLY

    They do exist. It’s called ‘Applying for a visa’. If you can afford £3-5k for a people smuggler you can afford the fees to apply for LEGAL immigration, once you’ve landed in a safe country like France!

    I guess you didn’t read Jackie’s comment:

    There is no visa you can apply for to claim asylum in the UK.

    Plus you fail to address the issue that France, like most countries (including Belarus), require you to have a valid visa before you are allowed to enter.

    25th November 2021 at 2:56 pm #563727

    Refugee expert chap on Radio4 World At One just reiterated there are safe legal routes for asylum seekers to get to UK.

    If there were don’t you think people would use them rather than paying thousands to people smugglers and risking their lives in a flimsy rubber dinghy in the dangerous freezing waters of the channel?

    25th November 2021 at 3:14 pm #563728

    Then why, Bobby, is France not prosecuting those camped in Calais and other areas for ‘illegal entry’, not being in possession of a ‘valid visa’?

    25th November 2021 at 3:18 pm #563729

    However you look at it, France is ignoring the ‘issue’ of having countless thousands on illegal immigrants en route for the UK.

    Did anyone watch Michel Barnier on TF1 last night promising to ‘tighten France’s borders’ if elected as President?

    Oh, the irony!

    25th November 2021 at 4:44 pm #563731

    Andrew J – It’s true the French haven’t done all they can but say if the situation was reversed. Do you think the UK taxpayer would accept having to pay for the additional policing of the British coast to stop refugees getting to France? Effectively paying to police the French border? Would the UK be happy with the fact that in addition to already taking in more than the France then they are expected to take ALL the refugees?
    Also add in that the French had so far not paid a penny of the £54 million they promised to the UK to help tackle refugee crossings…..

    I think you’d find the British would behave in exactly the same way as the French….

    25th November 2021 at 5:35 pm #563735

    I was never a Corbyn fan but he seems to understand the issues better than most.

    Amnesty has summed it up for me, I agree with all of this. From the Guardian:

    Amnesty International has called on the UK government to “take decisive action” to prevent more deaths in the Channel, as it warned that the dangerous journeys take place because the government will not provide a safe alternative for people to exercise their right to claim asylum.

    In a statement responding to the quarterly immigration statistics, released earlier on Thursday, Amnesty said deaths of people crossing the Channel have risen because the government provides no safe and legal routes for people to enter the UK.

    Steve Valdez-Symonds, Amnesty International UK’s Refugee and Migrant Rights director, said:

    In the wake of the devastating tragedy at the Channel yesterday, the UK government must urgently take decisive action to prevent more loss of life.

    The UK must make it a priority to share responsibility with other countries to receive people into its asylum system – they must do this by providing safe and legal routes and encourage others to do the same.

    We must remember that dangerous journeys take place because the government provides no safe alternative for people to exercise their right to seek asylum here.

    The Afghanistan Citizenship Resettlement Scheme is one example of the government’s fundamental failure to provide safe routes – a scheme announced in August that has still not opened – ministers cannot even guarantee it will open anytime soon.

    The UK’s failure to play its part in providing protection to people who are fleeing conflict and persecution is even more distressing at a time when the Home Office is trying to push through its draconian nationality and borders bill. This new policy will further exacerbate the asylum system and continue to punish and exclude people seeking safety.

    If the government is truly concerned with tackling these gangs and their abuse of people, they must set up safe asylum routes, so people no longer need to depend on smugglers.

    We desperately need a new approach to asylum – including genuine Anglo-French efforts to devise safe asylum routes, a major overhaul of the painfully slow applications system, an end to the use of dangerous and unsuitable accommodation facilities like Napier Barracks, and a political approach based on real humanity.

    It is no good waiting until these people have put themselves in the hands of the people smugglers, put up with god knows what horrors and deprivations along the way, almost reached their destination and then trying to frustrate them on the very last leg, the last few miles of their journey.

    Trying to stop the crossings is like sticking your finger in a dyke to hold back the flood. It’s not a solution. You need to look at ways of diverting the flood water before it reaches that point.

    25th November 2021 at 5:46 pm #563737

    Lets be honest, France is a safe country but the “refugees” don’t want to be here and the French don’t want them, so they turn a blind eye as people smugglers supply them with boats to cross the channel putting themselves in severe danger to escape a safe country. The RNLI, a charity supported to rescue people in genuine emergencies are now  spending their time and valuable resources  providing a taxi service to thousands of people who knowingly put themselves in danger.

    I know they have the right to claim asylum in a country of their choice but any country in the EU is safe so there can only be one reason they want to get to the UK, because the pickings are richer, and in my mind that makes them economic migrants and not genuine refugees. If the UK opened a legal route and agreed to take a share of asylum seekers it would not cure the problem because those who were not included would continue to arrive via the channel.  Just my opinion

    Anonymous
    25th November 2021 at 6:01 pm #563739

    Jackie
    25TH NOVEMBER 2021 AT 2:56 PM #563727
    Refugee expert chap on Radio4 World At One just reiterated there are safe legal routes for asylum seekers to get to UK.

    If there were don’t you think people would use them rather than paying thousands to people smugglers and risking their lives in a flimsy rubber dinghy in the dangerous freezing waters of the channel?

    Sorry, Jackie. your post leaves me a little confused unless you left out a word.

    It would make sense if the refugee expert had said, “there are no safe legal routes”.

     

    There are some legal safe routes, I believe, but they are very minor, and are in connection with the UN schemes. So far the UK has accepted and resettled……wait for it…..you’ll be amazed at the number………and I think they were all children…….

    we have already resettled 345 refugees between January and March 2021 across all resettlement schemes.

    https://homeofficemedia.blog.gov.uk/2021/06/14/how-does-the-uk-help-refugees-through-safe-and-legal-routes/

    It only started this year.

    Anonymous
    25th November 2021 at 6:05 pm #563740

    AndrewJ (17)
    25TH NOVEMBER 2021 AT 3:14 PM #563728
    Then why, Bobby, is France not prosecuting those camped in Calais and other areas for ‘illegal entry’, not being in possession of a ‘valid visa’?

    If they do prosecute them? what penalty would they apply? Arrest, prison, fine. Where would they send the summons, M. Unknown, c/o The Camp, France?

    If they arrested them, then they’d have to repatriate them on release, to where?

    I’m sure the French want their prisons full of asylum seekers. :whistle:

    It’s a minefield and I can understand the French not wanting to go there.

    Anonymous
    25th November 2021 at 6:08 pm #563741

    AndrewJ (17)
    25TH NOVEMBER 2021 AT 3:18 PM #563729
    However you look at it, France is ignoring the ‘issue’ of having countless thousands on illegal immigrants en route for the UK.

    And UK is ignoring countless thousands of failed asylum seekers wandering around UK without any means of support from the UK government.

    UK is also ignoring the dangers of not doing anything about the lack of, and the closure of the safe legal routes for asylum seekers.

    Anonymous
    25th November 2021 at 6:16 pm #563742

    John P said
    25TH NOVEMBER 2021 AT 5:46 PM #563737
    Lets be honest, France is a safe country but the “refugees” don’t want to be here and the French don’t want them, so they turn a blind eye as people smugglers supply them with boats to cross the channel putting themselves in severe danger to escape a safe country. The RNLI, a charity supported to rescue people in genuine emergencies are now  spending their time and valuable resources  providing a taxi service to thousands of people who knowingly put themselves in danger.

    There are plenty of eminent sources providing reasons why refugees prefer to come to UK, Family, friends already here and language are the most often quoted.

     

    John P said

    I know they have the right to claim asylum in a country of their choice but any country in the EU is safe so there can only be one reason they want to get to the UK, because the pickings are richer, and in my mind that makes them economic migrants and not genuine refugees.

    And a bigoted opinion, John. It is proven that the majority of refugees don’t know about the various support mechanisms in UK or any other country. It’s just the malicious media comments persuaded you to believe it.

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