31 JANUARY

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  • 4th January 2020 at 12:13 pm #517944

    There is no ‘if’; this is the negotiated international treaty that is shortly to become law.

    What do I suggest people do?

    It depends on your circumstances.

    If you’ve been legally resident in France for five years or more (and can prove it), you could apply for a permanent residency card now.  Next year, under the WA, you can simply swap it for the new special British citizen version.

    If you have been here for fewer than five years…

    Well I won’t be doing anything this year in terms of applying for a carte de sejour, as if you are granted one it will be an EU citizen one; it’ll therefore be obsolete as of next year.

    The earliest anyone need apply is a minimum of six months after the end of the transition, i.e. July 2021 (in 18 months).

    I will use the time now to file my first tax return, for 2019, and ensure I have everything prepared.

     

    4th January 2020 at 12:14 pm #517946

    The French government take on what you need to do is here

    the site to apply for a CdS is here

    and the documents needed for the application can be downloaded here

    All the above are (or are available) in English

    4th January 2020 at 12:16 pm #517948

    Jamie do not rely on other peoples explaination of what the WA says read it for your self and then you may understand what it really says. In true terms it says nothing definitive, all of it is subject to agreement. The WA has still to be ratified, as in the case of Belgium one region in that country could refuse to ratify and then the entire thing goes back for negotiation. As with a recent trade agreement and the Canadian agreement. At that stage the UK has left the EU so what happens then. The UK government have put out the following guidance notes, but they are heavily affected by the opinion of the now ruling party https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/eu-withdrawal-agreement-bill. The following may help you understand why you cannot rely on other peoples interpretation. from https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-8713 “Citizens’ rights. Free movement will continue until the end of the transition (or implementation) period enabling EU and UK nationals to move between the UK and EU Member States as is currently permitted by EU law. EU citizens living in their host state before the end of transition will have permanent residence rights under the withdrawal agreement, subject to certain requirements. The UK and the EU27 have discretion under the agreement to require EU or UK nationals to apply for a new residency status.” from https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-8713 https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-8453 Citizens’ rights are covered in Part 3 of the Bill (clauses 7-17 and Schedules 1-2). Clauses 7-17 and Schedule 1 are unchanged from the Withdrawal Agreement Bill introduced in the 2019 session.[1] A couple of changes have been made in Schedule 2 (highlighted below).

    Yes I have read it thanks; I posted the summary for others’ benefit.

    The thing will be passed; it has been agreed by EU leaders, whose respective governments won’t fail to pass it.

    The case you mention where a local Belgian council or whatever blocked a bill can no longer happen; EU rules have changed since.

    And the bit you emboldened is answered in the next sentence; EU states may (or may not) require people to apply for residency (or they could simply grant it).  This will obviously be subject to conditions, such as having a job, a business or being rich, having a carte vitale/health insurance etc.

    4th January 2020 at 12:18 pm #517950

    The French government take on what you need to do is here the site to apply for a CdS is here and the documents needed for the application can be downloaded here All the above are (or are available) in English

    Don’t use that.

    As the site says itself, that application process is for the event of a “no deal” Brexit.

    It was launched prematurely and is now redundant.

    4th January 2020 at 12:31 pm #517953

    Jamie if you have read and understand the WA why do you need to look to others to explain it to you.

    The Belgium region blocked a trade agreement the other day, and the EU cannot change domestic legislation of a member country on the way that countries constitution operates.

    Anonymous
    4th January 2020 at 12:32 pm #517955

    jamie

    EU states may (or may not) require people to apply for residency (or they could simply grant it). This will obviously be subject to conditions, such as having a job, a business or being rich, having a carte vitale/health insurance etc.

    Which is basically what I have been saying all along. It is not about any treaty but what a country decides to do after Brexit and the conditions it applies on residency. There is NO EU law that fits all in the case of being a resident.

    Anonymous
    4th January 2020 at 12:34 pm #517957

    There is no ‘if’; this is the negotiated international treaty that is shortly to become law. What do I suggest people do? It depends on your circumstances. If you’ve been legally resident in France for five years or more (and can prove it), you could apply for a permanent residency card now. Next year, under the WA, you can simply swap it for the new special British citizen version. If you have been here for fewer than five years… Well I won’t be doing anything this year in terms of applying for a carte de sejour, as if you are granted one it will be an EU citizen one; it’ll therefore be obsolete as of next year. The earliest anyone need apply is a minimum of six months after the end of the transition, i.e. July 2021 (in 18 months). I will use the time now to file my first tax return, for 2019, and ensure I have everything prepared.

    So you are not the other Jamie that says Bonjour/hello each time he posts? Just to clarify ….

    4th January 2020 at 12:37 pm #517959

    Jamie if you have read and understand the WA why do you need to look to others to explain it to you. The Belgium region blocked a trade agreement the other day, and the EU cannot change domestic legislation of a member country on the way that countries constitution operates.

    You clearly did not read my reply.

    I did not look to that article to explain it to me; I posted it as a summary for other users.

    A couple of months ago I went through the full WA and posted my own summary in the “clowns to the left of me…” thread.

    And which region blocked which deal the other day? I’d be interested to read about that if you can provide further details.

    4th January 2020 at 12:38 pm #517961

    There is no ‘if’; this is the negotiated international treaty that is shortly to become law. What do I suggest people do? It depends on your circumstances. If you’ve been legally resident in France for five years or more (and can prove it), you could apply for a permanent residency card now. Next year, under the WA, you can simply swap it for the new special British citizen version. If you have been here for fewer than five years… Well I won’t be doing anything this year in terms of applying for a carte de sejour, as if you are granted one it will be an EU citizen one; it’ll therefore be obsolete as of next year. The earliest anyone need apply is a minimum of six months after the end of the transition, i.e. July 2021 (in 18 months). I will use the time now to file my first tax return, for 2019, and ensure I have everything prepared.

    So you are not the other Jamie that says Bonjour/hello each time he posts? Just to clarify ….

    Not that I am aware of.

    4th January 2020 at 12:41 pm #517963

    This discussion has been very good even if you do not agree with anything anybody else is saying, can we have more of this, rather than some of the frankly banal subjects which seem to get such attention.

    4th January 2020 at 12:45 pm #517965

    jamie

    EU states may (or may not) require people to apply for residency (or they could simply grant it). This will obviously be subject to conditions, such as having a job, a business or being rich, having a carte vitale/health insurance etc.

    Which is basically what I have been saying all along. It is not about any treaty but what a country decides to do after Brexit and the conditions it applies on residency. There is NO EU law that fits all in the case of being a resident.

    It still isn’t quite right!

    The WA is a treaty to which all EU member states are subject (including the UK).

    In very basic terms it grants continued residence for anyone in any EU state (that isn’t their birth/citizen state) up to and including NYE 2020.

    This includes continued social security aggregation, continued pension uprating and continued S1 contributions as if Brexit had never happened – provided, crucially, you are in that state on 31 December.

    Now member states can facilitate that as they wish; some may have a declatory system, whereby they simply grant all such people residency (something makes me think Italy planned that amongst others).

    Some may require an application (as with the UK, and probably France).

    No-one would dispute that if you were going to have to apply for something, you would have to supply information.   But it will be straightforward and free.

    Got a job? Your passport and contract would probably be enough etc.

     

    In a nutshell the method by which a state may confer residency is up to that state, but they are all obliged to facilitate this under the WA.

    4th January 2020 at 12:47 pm #517967

    This discussion has been very good even if you do not agree with anything anybody else is saying, can we have more of this, rather than some of the frankly banal subjects which seem to get such attention.

    Well in this case it’s not really a case of agreement or not; some of these things are published treaty.

    Anyway what was that Belgian-blocked trade deal?

    Anonymous
    4th January 2020 at 1:19 pm #517974

    jamie

    EU states may (or may not) require people to apply for residency (or they could simply grant it). This will obviously be subject to conditions, such as having a job, a business or being rich, having a carte vitale/health insurance etc.

    Which is basically what I have been saying all along. It is not about any treaty but what a country decides to do after Brexit and the conditions it applies on residency. There is NO EU law that fits all in the case of being a resident.

    jamie It still isn’t quite right!

    Yes. yes we are all or should be aware that if you are here in France your rights to reside here remain the same. Now here is the point you appear to have by passed. We will probably all need new and different Carte de Sejours (not UE on it for a start) according to the French government, that is the time when your supposed rights may well change, if you cannot prove you are able to have sufficient funds to not be a burden, then it could well be the case that you will not be granted residency. As I have said, the same rights work in a similar way in the UK but of course 99% (picked out the sky but I bet it’s close) of French that go to the UK go for work, so that is more of a benefit to the UK than many of us retired in France (many French, inc health workers/surgeons/doctors are now returning to France as they don’t like the way the UK is, either being run, or due to an air of grievance about foreigners and an unknown occurrence with how Boris will act on Brexit day and don’t please quote treaties at me as it won’t wash, especially on the French side, you will need many more years experience of life in France to understand French logic. You may well have noticed already the times France sign up to an EU ruling but goes it’s own way? There was a time when France actually owed ample fines to Brussels for going against EU laws….

     

    4th January 2020 at 1:47 pm #517980

    Paul wrote

    This discussion has been very good even if you do not agree with anything anybody else is saying, can we have more of this, rather than some of the frankly banal subjects which seem to get such attention.

    I agree with you, this post is very interesting, I am reading it with much interest, but we all have a perfect right to post and discuss whatever subject interests us Paul, those that we are willing to take part in we can and do, those that are of either no interest, or which are of interest to read but not take part in, we can either scroll on by or read and digest the comments. I have posted about the dreadful fires and destruction in Australia, obviously not many members wish to comment, or have other posts to comment on which are of much more importance to them, such as this post, totally understandable and entirely their choice.

    Anonymous
    4th January 2020 at 2:04 pm #517985

    It is interesting , I follow it with interest too .

    Also for those that havn’t got their ” act ” together or have been living in France without following the rules.

    Those that have lived/live here legally, do know , ” not knowing ” does’t work in France . :yes: :yes:

    4th January 2020 at 2:53 pm #517987

    jamie

    EU states may (or may not) require people to apply for residency (or they could simply grant it). This will obviously be subject to conditions, such as having a job, a business or being rich, having a carte vitale/health insurance etc.

    Which is basically what I have been saying all along. It is not about any treaty but what a country decides to do after Brexit and the conditions it applies on residency. There is NO EU law that fits all in the case of being a resident.

    jamie It still isn’t quite right! Yes. yes we are all or should be aware that if you are here in France your rights to reside here remain the same. Now here is the point you appear to have by passed. We will probably all need new and different Carte de Sejours (not UE on it for a start) according to the French government, that is the time when your supposed rights may well change, if you cannot prove you are able to have sufficient funds to not be a burden, then it could well be the case that you will not be granted residency. As I have said, the same rights work in a similar way in the UK but of course 99% (picked out the sky but I bet it’s close) of French that go to the UK go for work, so that is more of a benefit to the UK than many of us retired in France (many French, inc health workers/surgeons/doctors are now returning to France as they don’t like the way the UK is, either being run, or due to an air of grievance about foreigners and an unknown occurrence with how Boris will act on Brexit day and don’t please quote treaties at me as it won’t wash, especially on the French side, you will need many more years experience of life in France to understand French logic. You may well have noticed already the times France sign up to an EU ruling but goes it’s own way? There was a time when France actually owed ample fines to Brussels for going against EU laws….

     

    I am not sure why you think the point about needing a residency card has passed me by; I have mentioned it in almost every post.

    For the avoidance of doubt, I agree cards will be necessary.

    However, in the “no deal” scenario, the entire process for residency applications would be up to individual countries (and the French requirements are on the CDS website, which is now moribund).  So yes any country could have done as they wished.

    In the event now of “a deal” (as seems 99.9% likely to pass), member states will be obliged to adhere to this treaty (as they adhere to others, such as smart meter rollouts, where France is on schedule, or roaming charges abolition), to provide these rights.

    The choice for individual states is simply “how” they do it.  France will probably require cards; and yes that will mean people living in the shadows cash in hand will be caught out, but fair enough.

    For everyone else, to go back to the original person who started this thread as he was concerned what would happen after 31 January, I shall repeat what I said.

    Relax; we have a minimum of 18 months now before we must apply for residency.  For 1 of those months we will be in the EU and for a further 11 the EEA.

    Ample time to file at least one tax return, register your car, register a business if necessary, get into the social security system etc, which should allow you to be able to provide the minimum proof required when the time comes to apply for residency.

     

    Anonymous
    4th January 2020 at 4:03 pm #517992

    jamie: In the event now of “a deal” (as seems 99.9% likely to pass), member states will be obliged to adhere to this treaty (as they adhere to others, such as smart meter rollouts, where France is on schedule, or roaming charges abolition), to provide these rights.

     

    Just to clarify and to stop these ever decreasing circles, which basically means we are seeing sensibility in so much as there is not much between us all now. Please write out in simple terms what the treaty says.
    Forget it being anything like the Linky meters ruling by Energis and portable phone roaming charges, they are not anything to do with Brexit and not in the same ball park, so to speak. As I have said on numerous occasions, the French will do what they think best, treaty, or no treaty, law or not, as they have done ever since being in the EU. They won’t worry about anything coming down heavy on them, they are the French!!

    4th January 2020 at 4:15 pm #517995

    jamie: In the event now of “a deal” (as seems 99.9% likely to pass), member states will be obliged to adhere to this treaty (as they adhere to others, such as smart meter rollouts, where France is on schedule, or roaming charges abolition), to provide these rights.

    Just to clarify and to stop these ever decreasing circles, which basically means we are seeing sensibility in so much as there is not much between us all now. Please write out in simple terms what the treaty says. Forget it being anything like the Linky meters ruling by Energis and portable phone roaming charges, they are not anything to do with Brexit and not in the same ball park, so to speak. As I have said on numerous occasions, the French will do what they think best, treaty, or no treaty, law or not, as they have done ever since being in the EU. They won’t worry about anything coming down heavy on them, they are the French!!

     

    I am sure I have written in simple, complex and everything in between terms what the treaty means, including in my last few messages.

    But in simple terms, if you are living in an EU country by 31 December at the latest, and legally (i.e. declaring work, income, health cover etc) then nothing will change bar two things – you’ll no longer be able to stand or vote in French elections, and you’ll need a card (but it’ll be a unique card with no cost or difficult requirements).

     

    If the French system has any impact on this process I imagine it will be that it will take a long time, during which one should enjoy the summer and wine.

    Anonymous
    4th January 2020 at 5:05 pm #517998

    Well that’s a very easy one for the French to march all over after 31st December 2020.

    I am sure we all knew what you have just written but I thought there was a treaty I hadn’t seen, or read. Never been able to vote in French elections anyway but of course not being able to vote in communal elections has never bothered me to want to stand as M le Maire, or even some form of a councillor and Euro elections.

    4th January 2020 at 5:21 pm #518001

    Well that’s a very easy one for the French to march all over after 31st December 2020.

    Well I prefer to plan according to facts, not unfounded pessimism.

    According to the French governments’ website (https://brexit.gouv.fr/sites/brexit/accueil/vous-etes-britannique-en/droit-au-sejour-en.html):

    In the event of a withdrawal agreement:

    – The [residency] conditions will be the same as at present in terms of recognising a right of residence for EU citizens. British nationals will have to prove that they come under one of the following categories (employed, retired, student etc).

    – British citizens who are present in France prior to 31 December 2020 will have to apply for the new permit provided for in the withdrawal agreement.

    – British citizens who begin working in France prior to 31 December 2020 will not require a work permit.  Only those who come to France as from 1 January 2021 will be obliged to apply for such a permit.

    – British citizens who carry on a self-employed profession prior to 31 December 2020 will have to provide proof, by any means, that they do so on a lawful, actual and long-term basis (no minimum income).

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